This is the message of so many in the cult of pure click-and-treat dog training.
Ironic, eh?
How come these dog trainers do not know a better way to train people?
And why all this division anyway?
After all, the debate is not whether well-timed rewards work, but whether they are the only thing that works on all things, all the time.
And the answer there, of course, is NO. Well-timed aversives also have their place, which is why most dog trainers remain balanced trainers.
But, to bring it back to the irony, how funny is it that the clicker cultists (a sub-set of the clicker community, it should be said) think whining, barking, lunging, and chain-jerking is the best way to make their point with people?
Fascinating!
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11 comments:
Can clicker training fix "stupid"?
Real stupid (brain issues) probably cannot be fixed, but a lot of what passes for stupid (lazy, hazy, crazy) is simply low motivation. I always find it fascinating how people often find a job when they unemployment runs out and they get hungry and scared. The same goes for dogs -- hunger is a great motivator, and a really hungry dog will increase his intelligence by 10% or better and his in learning by several fold. Most stupid dogs, I think, are simply over-fed and underexperienced. That said, there ARE stupid dogs, same as with people. Not everyone as the same abilities in type or degree.
P.
I was talking to a trainer about Therapy Dog Training and mentioned that I had used the Cesar Millan training style with great success on my PTSD rescue dog.
She said they had a 12 step program for Cesar training and tried to hand me a clicker and a harness for him.
I left the building.
Debi and the TX JRTs
Patrick, I don't know what sources you are reading that spurs you to regularly ridicule clicker training, but you know that there are amateurs in every field, and dog training is no exception. On the training list that I belong to, and at training seminars that I attend periodically, there is lots of encouragement and sharing of info for applying behavior concepts to people as well as to dogs. When someone gets rabid and insulting, others are there to remind folks of just the point you made: that attack-mode is not generally an effective mindset if one's goal is to teach, and punishment is not the most effective approach for most things. You really should go to Clicker Expo sometime--I think it might be enlightening for you to see some of the world's top animal trainers (including zoo and marine mammal trainers) demonstrating techniques and talking about research. Clicker training is not magic nor a gimmick; it is a tool for applying operant conditioning, which is based on solid science. Just because some wannabe loudmouth practitioners don't have a good understanding of the principles does not mean that the principles are unsound.
Also, not sure whether HTTrainer was talking about dogs or people. :) But I do agree with you that low motivation and lack of experience are often mistaken for "stupid" --by people who do not know how to motivate and train their dog. That is why a good training class is usually more about training the people --to train their dogs. I love showing people that their 'stupid' dog is anything but stupid, and aside from a few very damaged puppymill dogs, they do not disappoint.
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Excellent use of extinguishing!
And your story is a case example of the kind of divisiveness that the Cult of the Clicker embrace. Cesar Millan does not attack clickers any more than I do (these folks REALLY need to read a book, eh?) and, to be clear a LOT of clicker trainers are not Cult members, but it's the Cult members that are so loud and divisive. They are like Jews for Jesus -- in their enthusiasm upon conversion from whatever lack-luster system of belief they once had, they seem incapable of not being both rude AND as blind as posts. Clickers are great; they work in most situations, but they simply do not work, or are not the best tool, in *every* situation. Every true trainer knows this, but the Clicker Cult is not made of true trainers, any more than Jews for Jesus is filled with people who went to Seminary School.
P
Dominance hypocrites, is how I look at those people.
They decry any sort of hierarchy in canine social interaction (including the dog-owner relationship). After all, any hierarchy is based on force, intimidation, fear and anger.
I like to wonder if these people have ever held real jobs in which they are paid by someone who is more dominant to them in the corporate food chain, because they obviously know nothing about dogs and feel the need to compensate for that with a brain that has no "Off" button in regards to emotional blackmail towards balance in training.
Hopefully that makes sense--it's still early yet.
Sue, I have been around clicker trainers for 20 years and they come in all stripes and, as I note, not all are members of the Clicker Cult. As for the clicker lists, I have been on them. I even wrote an article about the time Bob Bailey weighed in to explain the limits of clicker training. The deafening silence that followed his point, which is that there is a place to shoot the dog or lion (when it's eating someone) was quite amusing. Balanced trainers have NO problem saying clicker training works for a great deal of things, including many problems. Now, when will clicker trainers talk about the need for aversives in some situations? You see, it's really a one-way street most of the time. A balance trainer has more than a clicker in his bag of tricks.
P.
PS, I just read my firts response and the typos in it. Remind me never to do more than write a sentence with the cell phone!
P
I'm stunned by the level of vitriol I see also in the Animal Rights community.
When I stumbled across t-shirts and bumper stickers on an AR site some time ago that suggested, among other things, to " Save a Shelter Dog, Euthanize a Breeder" and "Mean People Breed Dogs", I was inspired to design my own counter-sentimented t-shirts ( not for sale - no sales push here!).
I posted both the AR t-shirts and mine on my blog (The Local Dog). Take a look. T-shirts like the one you posted above really DO exist! So incredibly unproductive...
http://thelocaldog.wordpress.com/2011/06/15/my-dogs-a-local-dog/
Jesus. The person that designed those first shirts is an idiot, and yours really is terrific!
I am all for adopting dogs. When this blog loads the first line that loads is about adopting a dog in need, rescue links are posted at the right, etc. But the person who created those first shirts was not trying to get people to adopt a local dog -- he or she was screaming: "I am morally superior." And guess what? As soon as you do that kind of screaming, you prove you are not morally superior; you are just one more narcisist with a megaphone.
Now on to the good stuff: I love the phrase "local dog." It's the perfect answer to "what breed is that?" It says the point without screaming it. It puts a positive value on it. These days people are all about buying locally. OK. How about a local dog to go with those local tomatoes? Nice. Full applause!
P
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