tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684843.post5222348499535518354..comments2024-03-26T22:16:26.572-04:00Comments on Terrierman's Daily Dose: Who Invented Animal Training?PBurnshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05781540805883519064noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684843.post-68947340415392366822010-03-25T12:42:11.449-04:002010-03-25T12:42:11.449-04:00"Practice makes perfect" always makes me..."Practice makes perfect" always makes me cringe a little. The fuller truth is "Practice makes permanent". One had better be crystal clear about the result they desire and exactly how to get there because practice will indeed make whatever is happening pretty solid. <br /><br />SeahorseSeahorsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00133454380103294333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684843.post-88141127650040607932010-03-25T09:36:57.888-04:002010-03-25T09:36:57.888-04:00I guess it depends what you call "training&qu...I guess it depends what you call "training". Teaching tricks is one thing, socializing a dog to live with humans is another.Mongoosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13545512692510569390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684843.post-4671924211010623892010-03-25T03:00:10.641-04:002010-03-25T03:00:10.641-04:00See >> http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/...See >> http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2004/10/short-history-of-dog-training.html<br /><br />As I note, "operant conditioning" is older than the pyramids and is at least as old as dogs.<br /><br />The idea that "consquences lead to learning" is the core of operant conditioning and much older than Skinner, Thorndike, the Bible, or even the devopment of fire. <br /><br />So far as I know Thorndike's work does not mention a lot of the things Skinner did. For example, I do not think Thorndike talks about extinguishing behavior (one of the three legs of operant conditioning). Nor, do I believe, is there a mention of variable rewards as motivator. Thorndike's core thesis was that practice makes perfect, and that rewards and aversives (including something Thorndike called "readinenss") are the consequences that shape learning. <br /><br />Thorndike mostly worked with humans (he invented a type of IQ test), but his collected work on animals can be read here >> http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Thorndike/Animal/<br /><br />Thorndike is, so far as I know, one of the first people to actually collect and track data and do real (albeit primitve) learning experiments on animals. I suppose one could argue that his "cat box" was a kind of primitive Skinner box, though I think that dramatically understates the difference between Thorndike's very simple and primitve stuff and Skinner's much more sophisticated work. <br /><br />A final note: Thorndike is almost unreadable, in part because his theories were a bit fuzzy, and in part because his writing was quite furry. Skinner, on the other hand, was so clear on core concepts that he at times over-simplified, and he was a good enough writer that he produced a book (Walden II) that became a best seller. In short, Skinner was a motorcycle compared to Thorndike the tricycle. Keller and Marian Breland, took Skinner's motorcycle and added a sidecar, and then enclosed the sidecar and bike, inventing the first four-wheel drive cross-country vehicle that could take you almost anywhere while keeping you dry the whole time. <br /><br />Chase it around the room, and I think the first REAL animal trainers were Keller and Marian Breland. They did not work with a few animals for a little while in a lab, but with scores of thousands of animals, and at least 140 species, over more than 50 years in the real world. They are the Henry Fords of animal training, no only mass producing it, but also creating (or co-creating) such core elements as shaping and bridging. No, they did not invent the wheel, but they sure as heck invented the modern car.<br /><br />P.PBurnshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05781540805883519064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684843.post-58725473849147247522010-03-25T00:03:46.223-04:002010-03-25T00:03:46.223-04:00Skinner did discover operant conditioning much lik...<i>Skinner did discover operant conditioning much like Newton (co)discovered calculus</i><br /><br />And Thorndike was doing what exactly?Heather Houlahanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13891198124130533198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684843.post-62472387915350345552010-03-24T23:28:46.595-04:002010-03-24T23:28:46.595-04:00Patrick,
Thanks for this wonderful summarized hist...Patrick,<br />Thanks for this wonderful summarized history, and how nice to read a comment from my new hero, Bob Bailey!<br />Looking forward to your next one...<br />MelissaUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08128026551333547591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684843.post-88645015130973888602010-03-24T16:08:28.865-04:002010-03-24T16:08:28.865-04:00Thank Bob -- I am editing this a bit as I said I w...Thank Bob -- I am editing this a bit as I said I would. Nothing wrong with actually getting it right for once, LOL!<br /><br />PPBurnshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05781540805883519064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684843.post-81853053894409275522010-03-24T15:49:25.439-04:002010-03-24T15:49:25.439-04:00Well, I'm not a troll, and I did read the arti...Well, I'm not a troll, and I did read the article, so I guess it is OK if I say something. Patrick summarizes pretty well, but, as might be expected, there are a few inaccuracies.<br />What is VERY correct, in my opinion, is that animal training has been around for thousands of years, and that some animal trainers of old did pretty well.<br /><br />About the Brelands and clickers (they called them crickets), they were using a clicker long before the D-Day invasion. Keller made them himself and you can see the wood-metal homemade devices in the video PATIENT LIKE THE CHIPMUNKS (training birds in 1943-44). Next, it was true that Skinner did not "invent" operant conditioning, any more than Newton invented celestial mechanics, Skinner did discover operant conditioning much like Newton (co)discovered calculus and described the motion of our solar system - all incredibly important events in human history.<br /><br />We never worked for Sea World, Sea World management was too smart for that. They simply hired ABE's Training Director (Kent Burgess), tripling his salary. The Breland's wished him Godspeed!The rest is history. When you see a Sea World show you are viewing a direct descendant of ABE technology.<br /><br />Pointed out correctly that Marian was left with 3 children, but they were mostly grown. I, on the other hand, had 6 kids (3 sets of twins), all very young. Now, Marian was the smartest woman I've ever met, but, on occassion,I have questioned her sanity for buying into my houshold.<br /><br />But, why quibble about minor points. Skinner started it all by subjecting behavioral responses to objective data, and drawing conclusiongs, not all of which were correct. However, the Brelands' paper MISBEHAVIOR OF ORGANISMS did not detract so much from operant conditioning as much as it added to the potential of operant conditioning.<br /><br />Thank you for the very kind words about my very, very close colleagues who taught me so much. It was they who started so much, and I so little.<br /><br />Respectfully,<br /><br />Bob BaileyUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15904586873190334247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684843.post-18004731321386061462010-03-24T12:43:14.677-04:002010-03-24T12:43:14.677-04:00Man you people take all the fun out of life. YES,...Man you people take all the fun out of life. YES, I am going to talk about "The Misbehavior of Organisms" -- the next post. The one that the pure click and treat folks don't want to talk about because it's inconvenient.<br /><br />The good news, as far as most dog trainers are concwenred, is that most pet dogs are not too big on instinct. If you look at "problem dogs," however, you find they tend to be game bred or field bred -- terriers, digging, Corgis and Shelties barking and herding, etc.<br /><br />PPBurnshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05781540805883519064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684843.post-79345966666767508092010-03-24T11:20:22.588-04:002010-03-24T11:20:22.588-04:00There are so many different words used when traini...There are so many different words used when training an animal, each used by adherents of different theories. Ed Bailey has an interesting take on terminology in March issue of "Gun Dog Magazine". <br />We used many words to define our camp or niche in the training world, these words label ourselves and the methods we choose. You can't fix problems if we're babbling.HTTrainerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02067970362951618569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684843.post-46609485220947690502010-03-24T10:37:18.495-04:002010-03-24T10:37:18.495-04:00Wonderful History. I'm a little surprised you ...Wonderful History. I'm a little surprised you didn't mention "The Misbehavior of Organisms" the Breland's paper that destroyed the intellectual foundation of Skinner's theory.Donald McCaighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11890894628274998487noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684843.post-30077202336467681722010-03-24T09:52:43.525-04:002010-03-24T09:52:43.525-04:00But you forget what may be the most important chap...But you forget what may be the most important chapter of this story, the Brelands' paper "The Misbehavior of Organisms."<br /><br />Which could have been subtitled "When Skinnerian ideology gets bitch-slapped by biology."<br /><br />Easily found online.Heather Houlahanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13891198124130533198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684843.post-16610774245152695782010-03-24T08:59:16.651-04:002010-03-24T08:59:16.651-04:00Interesting article. I think though, operant condi...Interesting article. I think though, operant conditioning is probably why we now have so many dog whisperers, horse whisperers, baby whisperers, etc. Because operant conditioning ignores altogether the motivations behind the creatures' behaviours, and the relationships between members of a pack / household / herd. People who think that behaviour modification is all there is to getting others to do what you want are missing out on the concepts of motivation and relationship, and that makes them, on average, lousy trainers. In my opinion.Mongoosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13545512692510569390noreply@blogger.com