tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684843.post4255467490091160319..comments2024-03-18T04:55:23.399-04:00Comments on Terrierman's Daily Dose: Border Collie Owners Battle What Doesn't WorkPBurnshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05781540805883519064noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684843.post-6414745536890791042012-09-06T12:53:30.951-04:002012-09-06T12:53:30.951-04:00Great Blog...but, where does Adam Telfer come into...Great Blog...but, where does Adam Telfer come into this?...I mean Auld Hemp was THE Border CollieSimon 'Squiffy' Fallahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01469026314991914813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684843.post-46358580110635810282008-12-26T20:25:00.000-05:002008-12-26T20:25:00.000-05:00Matthew -- I'm talking about THE Collie, not the B...Matthew -- I'm talking about THE Collie, not the Border Collie. Any trait bred for in exclusion of all others oftentimes/usually leads to detrimental results. Examples include breeding for nothing but bone and subtsance, too much angulation, too much coat, and extreme behaviors (such as frantic obsessive-compulsive behaviors and excessive eye which locks a dog onto non-herding/predatory inanimate objects such as a leaf). In the case of the Border Collie, the OCD behaviors that make for a flashy trial performance also cause the dog to worry livestock, work themseves close to death in a nonsensical fashion, and can make them poor candidates as companion or performance sport dogs. I wouldn't care spo much ezxcept that BC people often trash the breeds of others, when their own breed has a lot of problems itself. Remember the saying, "Poeple who live in glass houses..." BC people were against AKC registration, but it isn't AKC registration that changed the breed. It was the choice of PEOPLE who either wanted a trial dog, or a show dog. Look at show-bred BCs. They have drmaatically changed during the past 35 years especially in England, istraloia and New Zealand. Now, there IS a separation in the BC breed between show and trial bred dogs. Look at the ads of US and Canadian show bred BCs -- the conformation is beautifl, but they are now show dogs. They are prettier dogs, with a level topline, nice head and expression, pretty eye (NOT the ugly glaring "eye" used in trials), good bone and subsance, and a calmer demeanor. They would probably suit the average citizen as a pet. Otherwise, look at all of the BCs being dumped at selters and rescue...why? Because their extreme herding behaviors which have gone beyond what is needed on a farm or ranch. The trial-bred BC is too much for most peopleto handle. I'm an experienced behaviorist and trainer, and I prefer not to work BCs. And, guess what, I do drive a Ferrari and I have no problem in handling it. But, I need to have control of it. Not all people can do that. I don't want to see extremes bred for in any breed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684843.post-66378535173627002032008-10-30T21:00:00.000-04:002008-10-30T21:00:00.000-04:00COLLIESRTOPS,if you want a dog with an "off switch...COLLIESRTOPS,<BR/><BR/>if you want a dog with an "off switch" that is fine. I want a dog with an “off switch” as well. That is why I choose not to keep collies, and keep a different breed… one that is supposed to have an off switch.<BR/><BR/>Trying to dumb down the collie and then say, "Well that is the dog that suits -my- needs." is selfish in the extreme, and detrimental to the breed. The first, best and highest calling of this particular breed is that of obsessive stock tending. If you want a different kind of dog, that is perfectly fine. But don't try to change a beautiful working breed to suit -your- needs if they are not aligned with the breed’s truest working purpose.<BR/><BR/>Is a Ferrari still a Ferrari if you put a 3 cylinder Honda engine in it? No... it will still look like a Ferrari, but a Ferrari, it is not.Matthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14398526185577871312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684843.post-76804549792341348522008-04-23T00:58:00.000-04:002008-04-23T00:58:00.000-04:00The Collie IS still a working dog, but his reperto...The Collie IS still a working dog, but his repertoire has expanded ten-fold since his creation centuries ago. At hias core, he is still a good all-around farm dog whether it's herding, guarding hearth or fold, killing rodents or other pests, taking care of the children, or acting as a gun dog for his owner when he isn't working stock. My father-in-law's family used to have their Collie pull a card with large milk cans to help out. A friend who is disbaled has her Collie pull a travois full of wood to help keep the winter's fire going and, when going to market, he pulls his cart filled with groceries for her. His calm demeanor and bright intelligence provide confident reassurance that she needs -- he is helping her to be as independent as she can. Another friend's Collie protected her senior husband whenh he went down in front of an aggressive ram. Spectre took charge and moved the ram away from Jim and into a nearby paddock. It does not end, and simply gets better! I say have faith -- you would be surprised at what a well-bred dog with good genes can do whether it be Collie or Border Collie. And, as far as farm ers who have flocks of sheep...I think that region must have a lot to do with the acceptance of sheepmen (or women) to use dogs. Here in Indiana, at least my area, no one uses sheepdogs on a regular basis. When asked, some dismiss it while others laugh it off. Perhaps it's because they are small flock owners who have never been convinced of the value of a good stock dog. Perhaps ignorance, or perhaps no one in their family has ever had such dogs. Oh, and by the way -- herding is not the only type of work. We could get into a pissing contest but I'm simply saying that there are those who say that sled dogs (such as those running the Iditarod are the hardest wofrking dogs on the planet, while others say hunting dogs are, hering dogs, etc. Simply said, is infintessimal types of work and sport for our dogs to do with or for us. I think they should all be recognized and accepted (except for the horrid bloodbath called dog fighting!). That said, the abilioty of dogs to flex and adjust and evolve helps to ensure their survival in this human dominated world. I admire Border Collies, but do not want to deal with the typical obsessive-compulsive behavior that comes with the package.colliesrtopshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16688044830016456300noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684843.post-9866068609049769142008-04-12T06:55:00.000-04:002008-04-12T06:55:00.000-04:00Ha! The fact that you and the American Working Co...Ha! The fact that you and the American Working Collie Association seem to think agility is work tells you a lot. Here's a hint: a border terrier can do agility. A schnauzer can do agility. A spaniel can do agility. It is not what a collie is supposed to do. As for AKC herding certificates, they are not much are they? In these things, it's hard to get a shot of the dog without a fence in the picture less than 12 feet away. Not much open-field herding, eh??! Again, we see border TERRIERS that have won AKC herding titles. It's a bit like an elephant painting a portrait of itself -- the fact that a few animals have been taught how to do this for the amusement of the tourist trade in Thailand does not suggest this is a good way to make a living in the portrait art business. And a show collie is NOT a working dog anymore. In fact, the show collie people do not even seem to know what work IS anymore!!<BR/><BR/>As for the notation that "not everyone has sheep," that is true enough, but more illuminating is the fact that the folks who DO have sheep (and there are scores of millions of sheep in this great big world) has an kennel club collie working them. The Kennel Club "scotch" collie is now a dog for hair dressers and suburban matrons who want to win weekend ribbons from show-ring enthusiasts who do not own sheep themselves. Your evidence to the contrary only afffirms and underlines the case. <BR/><BR/>PatrickPBurnshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05781540805883519064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684843.post-55351561540488985342008-04-11T23:06:00.000-04:002008-04-11T23:06:00.000-04:00Someone referred to the Collie (aka Rough Collie, ...Someone referred to the Collie (aka Rough Collie, Smooth Collie, Scotch Collie) as a non-working dog. This is far from the truth!. Since the early 1900s, more and more were primarily companion dogs. HOWEVER, there were still pockets of these dogs being worked on a daily basis as farm dogs. Only a small handful were trialed such as Ormskirk Charlie who is represented as one of the Supreme Champions in the book, The Blue Riband of the Heather! Not everyone has sheep, and so many more dogs are now trained and trialed in obedience trials, agility, etc. Better some type of work or sport than none at all! For more information, refer to www.awca.net. This is an organization founded in 1979 for the promotion and preservation of the Collie as a working dog including herding.<BR/><BR/>FYI The two top winners of the first herding trial held in Bala, Wales were Collies, not Border Collies. The owner of the dogs was S.E. Shirley, a founder of The Kennel Club and a breeder of Collies.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684843.post-52117174453950539222008-04-04T12:34:00.000-04:002008-04-04T12:34:00.000-04:00The comment about Queen Victoria being smitten wit...The comment about Queen Victoria being smitten with the Border Collie is incorrect. She was smitten with THE Collie in his original form. Just as Border Collies undoubtedly have Collie, Whippet, and Springer Spaniel coursing through their veins, the Collie continued to be a very useful dog in a variety of work and as a superior companion dog. Agriculture, and the demand for dogs as herders, has dramatically decreased beginning with the late 1800s. While I realize that that the Border Collie is now obviously the best trials dog, he is not a good pet in what is now a predomiantly companion dog society. We are working on retaining the herding instincts and abilities of the Rough and Smooth Collie, cousin or possibly even ancestor to the Border Collie, but we will probably never be at the intensely bred obsessive compulsive behavior of a typical trial BC. Granted, a small number of breeders introduced Borzoi into the Collie,but it is felt that it did NOT make it into the mainstream of the breed. If you would see a wellmade and useful "working" Collie, they a a great breed that can any type of work -- they are believed to be the most versatrile breed around. I want a dog with an off switch, not one thaqt has OCD or is a biter as are some BCs.I get tired of BC people trashing the Collie.colliesrtopshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16688044830016456300noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684843.post-14802380324923223352007-10-11T08:46:00.000-04:002007-10-11T08:46:00.000-04:00Gack! Beth --- members of the ABCA and the USBCHA...Gack! Beth --- members of the ABCA and the USBCHA are keeping the border collie as it should be. <BR/><BR/>If the members of the AKC breed club gave a rat's patoot about the authentic border collie and the complex mix of traits that make it such a remarkable animal, they'd stop title-chasing long enough to demand a closed studbook. <BR/><BR/><I>The registry will close as sure as God made ittle green apples.</I><BR/><BR/>Patrick, from your lips to God's ear. And the sooner the better.Luisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04042236324318156854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684843.post-28783333941447542632007-10-10T08:16:00.000-04:002007-10-10T08:16:00.000-04:00No one is knocking the AKC club (not McCaig, not m...No one is knocking the AKC club (not McCaig, not me), but let's not kid yourselves than you can rewrite the standard in the AKC, eh? That's the point of the debate: the standard for a Border Collie is the WORK not its looks. The AKC will NEVER, NEVER allow a performance standard. NEVER. <BR/><BR/>Nor will they maintain an open registry forever. The registry will close as sure as God made ittle green apples. If you think the AKC Border Collie Club can keep the registry open forever, then you are simply confused as to who runs the AKC; it's not the breed clubs. It's nameless faceless staffer in New York City. New York City? That's no place for a border collie! <BR/><BR/>Exactly.<BR/><BR/>PatrickPBurnshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05781540805883519064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684843.post-70987358990704242832007-10-09T11:30:00.000-04:002007-10-09T11:30:00.000-04:00I am far from an AKC fan and I have to agree with ...I am far from an AKC fan and I have to agree with most of what was said here. I do, however, have to give credit to the Border Collie Society of America (AKC parent club) as they have fought to try and keep the idea that the Border Collie is a working dog in the forefront, including rewriting the standard and getting the AKC to agree to keeping the registry for Border Collies open indefinitely. If Border Collies are going to be an AKC breed, at least there are those trying to work within the system to keep them as they should be.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684843.post-87855701125455543822007-10-08T10:29:00.000-04:002007-10-08T10:29:00.000-04:00Thanks for posting this Patrick. I'll be reviewin...Thanks for posting this Patrick. I'll be reviewing Mr. McCaig's book for my breed club newsletter. We're trying to keep our working dogs off the ACK radar screen as long as possible -- if we can stave it off long enough, perhaps they'll implode with the force of their own arrogance before they turn that lidless eye at our 'umble beasts.<BR/><BR/>Two weeks ago the ABCHA held its National Finals in Gettysburg, PA. I attended with my bitch and her four month-old pup, who are not border collies, but can pass, (because, who cares what they look like?) Unlike dog shows, agility trials, etc., the competing dogs and spectators' dogs were all well-mannered. Many (including several terriers and feists) wandered at will about the handlers' tent, minding their own business. It was not evident to whom they belonged.(Because, who cares about that if they are behaving themselves?)<BR/><BR/>I had the pleasure (among many others) of watching my friend Mr. McCaig and his June qualify for the semifinals, performing a refinement of farm work that is so delicate, so precise, so exacting, that it engenders the definite idea that what one is seeing is impossible. A dog and a human being cannot do what I am seeing them do.<BR/><BR/>I have never, not once, had that thought at a dog show.<BR/><BR/>Heather HoulahanHeather Houlahanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13891198124130533198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684843.post-50344308461925415642007-10-07T14:36:00.000-04:002007-10-07T14:36:00.000-04:00Excellent review. Have ordered my copy and eagerl...Excellent review. Have ordered my copy and eagerly await its arrival.<BR/><BR/>Now that the border collie is eligible to compete in CKC (Canadian Kennel Club) events, including confomration, will be interesting to see who chooses to do so and with what kind of dogs (sport collies, AKC show collies, etc).<BR/><BR/>The one question that bugs me, that none of the KC folks can answer is: how does affiliation with the KC improve the breed?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684843.post-22918878487983843552007-10-06T22:37:00.000-04:002007-10-06T22:37:00.000-04:00I've ordered my copy, as well.I own and breed show...I've ordered my copy, as well.<BR/><BR/>I own and breed show dogs, but I admit - and it's a hard thing to admit - that I have no faith in the show ring, and little respect for it. However, time and again I have heard that no one will 'take me seriously' as a quality breeder if I give up (in disgust, might I add) on showing.<BR/><BR/>My dog was bred to be a companion - that's all. Unfortunately, our standard has created a dog that's riddled with health problems, which is hardly, in my opinion, something that the average person looks for in their companion.<BR/><BR/>So, I whine about it, and breed my own version of Frenchies, which still do a fair amount of winning. Given my druthers, I'd only compete in agility and obedience, but I don't quite have the guts to chuck it all in yet. I'm almost there, though...FrogDogzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16509157874145070350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684843.post-43101685746882140932007-10-05T13:43:00.000-04:002007-10-05T13:43:00.000-04:00I came to read you due to the similarities between...I came to read you due to the similarities between your fight and the Border Collie fight. I'm a working BC person myself, although I'm down to one pet at the moment. My dogs come from working stock, and when I bred them, it was to other working stock, and the pups mostly all went out with Basque sheepherders and cowboys running cattle. None are registered, although the trials people have their own registries too. The stockmen I know just want a dog that will work, and if it doesn't, it's a quick shot to the head. Pulls that one right out of the gene pool. (The houndsmen I run with have similar policies, although they keep track of bloodlines more than I did.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684843.post-34198167632570343282007-10-04T19:54:00.000-04:002007-10-04T19:54:00.000-04:00Ordered!! Blogged!!Ordered!! Blogged!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com