tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684843.post2850906318904143015..comments2024-03-26T22:16:26.572-04:00Comments on Terrierman's Daily Dose: "Hunting Dogs" by Oliver Hartley, 1909PBurnshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05781540805883519064noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684843.post-50669188398739628102010-12-14T22:32:58.987-05:002010-12-14T22:32:58.987-05:00P.S. Thanks, too, regarding the "earths"...P.S. Thanks, too, regarding the "earths" question. Over the holidays I hope to read the Eddie Chapman and Bob Clough books I recently acquired. I think I need to do a serious review of "American Working Terriers" as well! <br /><br />SeahorseSeahorsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00133454380103294333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684843.post-41726450992530382482010-12-14T22:28:40.213-05:002010-12-14T22:28:40.213-05:00Thank you so much for this clarification! I'm ...Thank you so much for this clarification! I'm trying hard to plant provable things in my memory as opposed to things I thought I knew, or things that get repeated so often as to become "truth". I'd read the post that included the fox data you linked to above, but I'd never have found the Bergmann's Rule post. Much appreciated, as always.<br /><br />SeahorseSeahorsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00133454380103294333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684843.post-85197811676069791542010-12-14T15:24:02.648-05:002010-12-14T15:24:02.648-05:00The short answer is here >> http://www.terri...The short answer is here >> http://www.terrierman.com/foxsize.htm with data from all over.<br /><br />As I note in my book, fox size are variable all over, just as wolves are, and coyotes are, but they "bell out" at an average weight of around 15 pounds +/- two pounds, and that's true all over.<br /><br />Yes, across broad regions there is some variation in size, but this seems to be mostly due to the length of the body. Italian dog foxes average two pounds lighter than their English kin, and Italian vixens averaged one pound lighter than their English counterparts. Though you would think this might make for an English fox with a slightly larger chest, this does not appear to be the case -- body length seems to the determinant variable.<br /><br />In my experience, Maryland fox are about 12-15 pounds, but I have handled some smaller (11 pounds) and a few that were considerably larger. I do not kill fox, but I have friends who do, and they have booked a few as big as 22. Still a small chest though. A fox is mostly fur! It says a lot that there are no fox taxidermy mannikins with chests larger than 14" around.<br /><br />European fox earths are often old badger earths that may be anywhere from a month or two old to 200 years old or better. Some of these earths, especially the ones dug in chalk, get quite big around as badgers pull bedding in and out, and as erosion takes its course. That said, the folks I know who dig badger are the folks who also dig fox, and all are using the same size dogs that we are -- a shy bit over 12 inches at the shoulder is average, and a chest of around 14" in a young dog (it might spring to 15" or 16" with age)<br /><br />The fact that animals get larger as you go North is called "Bergmann's Rule," except that's it's more like "Bergmann's Suggestion" as it's not always true. <br /><br />For more on Bergmann's Rule and other wildlife "rules of thumb," see >> http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2004/08/wildlife-rules-of-thumb.html<br /><br />Bottom line: Anyone tells you a BIG dog can do the job with fox, you be sure to ask them to post their pictures of themselves digging on a few fox. It seems they have always "forgotten to bring a camera," LOL.<br /><br />PPBurnshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05781540805883519064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684843.post-55773144947287431942010-12-14T14:19:22.676-05:002010-12-14T14:19:22.676-05:00This got me thinking, and I looked up your post re...This got me thinking, and I looked up your post regarding worldwide fox sizes. I know you've written about this extensively, but I'm a little confused. In looking at the table of average fox weights, my state of Maryland has the lightest foxes of any location shown. Some of the European foxes were far heavier. I hear people talk about the European fox as being a much bigger animal and therefore many of the European-bred Jack Russells are larger. Two questions: I think I recall you showing that the red fox here is the same red fox as in Europe and not another variety, as they were imported from Europe. Is that correct? And, does the chest size of the red fox worldwide change as much as the weights do? Or, do the chest sizes remain closer to equal despite a heavier animal overall? I lied, I have another related question. U.S. earths vs. European earths: You refer to our earths as "tight". I can make something up about what I think that means, but what does it mean? I have also heard that the more north you go in America, the larger the dens and holes become, so a bigger dog might do o.k. in the field way north, but not more south. Do you have an opinion on that? Just trying to sort through it all to get it straight in my head, thanks.<br /><br />SeahorseSeahorsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00133454380103294333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684843.post-34744137372291837052010-12-13T17:15:59.760-05:002010-12-13T17:15:59.760-05:00I ignore bone and measure chest for Russells. If ...I ignore bone and measure chest for Russells. If I can get bone and a small chest, great, but too often "bone" means too big a dog. <br /><br />Mountain and Gideon both have a fair amount of bone, but I have seen some whispy bitches do pretty good work because they could get where they needed in a pipe. <br /><br />Out west, the greyhounds were rarely pure -- they were often crossed with light pits to be 7/8 greyhound which gives a heavier fast dog for knocking over coyotes. The same is done in the UK today where the fox are about half the size of a western coyote (which is smaller than an eastern coyote).<br /><br />PPBurnshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05781540805883519064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684843.post-44892111910971982472010-12-13T12:36:53.473-05:002010-12-13T12:36:53.473-05:00I'm struck by the amount of bone on the Fox Te...I'm struck by the amount of bone on the Fox Terrier. I had the same thought looking at the Grey Hound on the left in that photo. Where has all the bone gone???<br /><br />SeahorseSeahorsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00133454380103294333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684843.post-62662558388694695882010-12-12T08:39:12.601-05:002010-12-12T08:39:12.601-05:00Mr Terrierman, I do love this article but I disagr...Mr Terrierman, I do love this article but I disagree with you on one thing. I do not see an ugly dog there. They are all magnificent warriors of the wilderness with hearts and brains and spirit. Remember, Spartacus didn't really look like Kirk Douglas.<br /><br />Debi and the TX JRTs<br />who especially liked the last pictureseekerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07054814598250286797noreply@blogger.com